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Talk:Passover

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Hello, I'm going to attempt to start the writing of this page.

Iamnotaparakeet 10:02, 24 June 2008 (UTC) Ben Fournier.

Last Supper

I've never looked into this, so thought I'd find the verses giving detail about what day the last supper was:

Matthew 26:2 Ye know that after two days is the feast of the passover, and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified.

3 Then assembled together the chief priests, and the scribes, and the elders of the people, unto the palace of the high priest, who was called Caiaphas, 4 And consulted that they might take Jesus by subtilty, and kill him. 5 But they said, Not on the feast day, lest there be an uproar among the people.

Matthew 26:17 Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover? 18 And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples.

Mark 14:1 After two days was the feast of the passover, and of unleavened bread: and the chief priests and the scribes sought how they might take him by craft, and put him to death. 2 But they said, Not on the feast day, lest there be an uproar of the people.

Mark 14:12 And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover? 13 And he sendeth forth two of his disciples, and saith unto them, Go ye into the city, and there shall meet you a man bearing a pitcher of water: follow him. 14 And wheresoever he shall go in, say ye to the goodman of the house, The Master saith, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?

Luke 22:1 Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover. 2 And the chief priests and scribes sought how they might kill him; for they feared the people.

Luke 22:7 Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed. 8 And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat.

Luke 22:14 And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him. 15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer: 16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.

John 11:55 And the Jews' passover was nigh at hand: and many went out of the country up to Jerusalem before the passover, to purify themselves. 56 Then sought they for Jesus, and spake among themselves, as they stood in the temple, What think ye, that he will not come to the feast?

John 13:1 Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end. 2 And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him;

To me, I don't see what the contradiction is. In each account it says the last supper was held on Passover before the feast day. This is very important because the Pharisees did not want to risk the ire of the Jewish people, as seen in Matthew 26:5, Mark 14:2, and Luke 22:2 - "But they said, Not on the feast day, lest there be an uproar among the people."

I think they just misinterpreted the phrase "feast of the passover" in John 13:1. The phrase is actually referring to the feast day AFTER the Passover in the verse, as referred to in the other Gospels as well. That's why the next day during his trial the other gospels show this was the feast day, meaning the last supper happened before it:

Matthew 27:15 Now at that feast the governor was wont to release unto the people a prisoner, whom they would.

Mark 15:6 Now at that feast he released unto them one prisoner, whomsoever they desired.

Luke 23:17 (For of necessity he must release one unto them at the feast.) 18 And they cried out all at once, saying, Away with this man, and release unto us Barabbas:

John 13:1 Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.

John 18:38 Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, I find in him no fault at all. 39 But ye have a custom, that I should release unto you one at the passover: will ye therefore that I release unto you the King of the Jews? 40 Then cried they all again, saying, Not this man, but Barabbas. Now Barabbas was a robber.

I think it's just a case of poor reading comprehension on the part of critics, perhaps even intentional distortion. All four Gospels show the feast of the passover occurred directly after the last supper, as shown above, but John 18:38 records Pilate calling this feast "the passover" instead of the "feast of the passover". It looks like they also jumped to the assumption, due to their complete ignorance of Jewish customs, that the feast day was the same as the Passover, when a straightforward reading shows the first day of the feast of unleavened bread was called the Passover, and was actually before the 'feast day'. Just a silly extrapolation from one or two phrases without reading the whole thing in context, I see this over and over again with alleged contradictions. --Jzyehoshua 15:00, 12 May 2012 (PDT)

"I think it's just a case of poor reading comprehension on the part of critics, perhaps even intentional distortion."
Yup.--Tsommer (Tony) 15:06, 12 May 2012 (PDT)


I just found 2 more verses that might explain why they concluded as they did, John 18:28 and 19:14. Here are all the John verses together:
John 11:55 And the Jews' passover was nigh at hand: and many went out of the country up to Jerusalem before the passover, to purify themselves.

56 Then sought they for Jesus, and spake among themselves, as they stood in the temple, What think ye, that he will not come to the feast?

John 13:1 Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end. 2 And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him;

John 18:28 Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover.

John 18:39 But ye have a custom, that I should release unto you one at the passover: will ye therefore that I release unto you the King of the Jews?

John 19:14 And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!

It appears to be talking about the same event, the feast day of passover. Matthew 26:2-5 and Mark 14:1-2 call it "the feast of the passover" and says the Jewish leaders did not want to kill Jesus on it for fear of causing an uproar among the public. What gets confusing is that before this "feast day of passover" there occurs an event the 3 gospels call "keep[ing] the passover" or "kill[ing] the passover". Luke 22:1 shows this day prior to the "feast of the passover" was "the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover". So weird as it sounds, the Feast of Unleavened Bread was called The Passover and occurred before the Feast of the Passover.
According to Matthew 26:18 and Mark 14:12 the Passover occurs on "the first day of the feast of unleavened bread". Phrases used include "keep the passover" (Matthew 26:18), "when they killed the passover" (Mark 14:12), "eat the passover" (Mark 14:14), "the Passover" (Luke 22:1), "when the passover must be killed" (Luke 22:7), and "eat this passover" (22:14). However, it occurred before the feast of passover, as seen from Matthew 26:2-5, Mark 14:1-2, and John 13:1. The feast of passover occurring the next day was referred to as "the feast day" (Matthew 26:5), "that feast" (Matthew 27:15, Mark 15:6), "the feast" (Luke 23:17, John 13:29), and "the feast of the passover" (John 13:1). Looks like some confusion caused by the term passover being used to refer to two separate feasts, the feast of unleavened bread, and the feast of the passover.
However, it wasn't just the book of John that clearly showed the feast of passover occurred after the last supper, but Matthew 26:2-5 and Mark 14:1-2 show it as well - they just refer to the evening meal before this feast of the passover as the passover, confusing things. However, it was actually two different events - an evening meal during the Feast of Unleavened Bread (Wednesday evening?) called the Passover, and a feast day or holiday the next day called the Feast of Passover (Thursday?). The Passover is a Jewish tradition dating back to the Jews leaving Egypt, they prepared a meal before leaving Egypt when the Angel of Death crossed the land, killing the Egyptians - those without blood marking the doors - the Angel literally "passed over" the houses with sacrificial blood on the doors. The Feast Day of Passover appears however to have been celebrated the next day, whereas the Passover meal was held on the prior day, the Feast of Unleavened Bread. --Jzyehoshua 15:44, 12 May 2012 (PDT)
"However, it was actually two different events - an evening meal during the Feast of Unleavened Bread (Wednesday evening?) called the Passover, and a feast day or holiday the next day called the Feast of Passover (Thursday?)."
I don't think that is quite right. The Last Supper was on Wednesday, not Thursday. Every reference i see as well on the Feast of the Unleavened Bread happened AFTER the Passover, which would make it on Thursday not Wednesday according to your chronology. In any event what is at issue here is not a Feast of the Unleavened Bread and the Passover meal, but the Last Supper and the Crucifixion according to the skeptic. They ask how events in the gospels occurred between the; "Last Supper on Thursday night and the Crucifixion on Friday morning." This is solved by the historical investigation done by Humphreys that I sourced by understanding the use of different calenders.--Tsommer (Tony) 16:02, 12 May 2012 (PDT)
Hmm... any chance some of the confusion is caused by the Jewish day being different from ours? As I understand it, the Jewish day is from sunset to sunset per Leviticus 23:32. [1][2] "All Jewish holidays begin the evening before the date specified on most calendars. This is because a Jewish 'day' begins and ends at sunset, rather than at midnight. If you read the story of creation in Genesis Ch. 1, you will notice that it says, 'And there was evening, and there was morning, one day.' From this, we infer that a day begins with evening, that is, sunset. Holidays end at nightfall of the date specified on most calendars; that is, at the time when it becomes dark out, about an hour after sunset." [3] So then if I'm understanding this right, the Feast of Unleavened Bread ended at sunset, along with Wednesday, and then on Thursday, after evening, they had the last supper. So this was still Wednesday, perhaps before midnight, by our reckoning, but Thursday according to Jewish reckoning, and thus the Feast of Passover had begun? Just trying to figure out how this figures in. --Jzyehoshua 16:08, 12 May 2012 (PDT)
Well I think instead of using "our reckoning" and "Jewish reckoning" to understand the matter, we should take out our modern reckoning and give the authority to the historical setting. We should look at this in the sense of pre-exilic Jewish reckoning and post-exilic Jewish reckoning so to speak. In other words the days differ because one set of Jewish thought followed by John is derived from sixth century BC practice. That is a post-exilic calender we will say. Matthew, Mark, Luke use a "pre-exilic Jewish calendar was based on the Egyptian lunar calendar."[4] As your mindset is focused on the sun, in the instance of matthew, mark, luke their frame of mind was the lunar cycle. "From the clues they give, it’s clear that Matthew, Mark and Luke all used the pre-exilic calendar in their description of the Last Supper as a Passover meal, whereas John uses the official calendar in which the Last Supper was before the Passover."[5]--Tsommer (Tony) 16:18, 12 May 2012 (PDT)
Yes, exactly, that's what I mean. There's a lot of Biblical evidence though per those links that the Jewish day was considered to be from sunset to sunset though, e.g. Genesis 1:5, Leviticus 23:32, and Nehemiah 13:19. In the lengthy discourse here, it's noted very interestingly concerning Josephus, "In explaining the law concerning the Passover celebration Josephus writes: "'On the fourteenth day of the lunar month ... the law ordained that we should every year slay that sacrifice which I before told you we slew when we came out of Egypt, and which was called Passover; and so do we celebrate this passover in companies, leaving nothing of what we sacrifice till the day following.' In this passage the fourteenth day of the month on which the Paschal lamb was sacrificed between 3:00 to 6:00 p.m. (Lev 23:5), extends through the night during which the lamb was eaten in companies and ends in the morning when for Josephus the fifteenth day began."[6] Here though, it seems to show that Josephus said the common practice was to slay the sacrifice on the 14th day, and this slaying was called passover and extended through to the 15th day. --Jzyehoshua 16:30, 12 May 2012 (PDT)
Although that link is a good read, it does not divide the reckoning of days by pre and post exilic modes (which I think are a very important paradigm to follow for interpretation we are doing), and it also relies on particular translations, which would be to connote it should be found in the text. I don't think the answer for the reckonings can be found based on translation, but based on calender usage, because at a fundamental level translation deal with words, while calenders deal with time. The culture of the text was developed in a high-context society, where certain things were assumed to be known by the audience being written to. This is why the explicit mention of using two separate calenders by matthew, mark luke... and John is not stated in the NT. While you derive your two reckonings upon a translation issue of the word opse as per the conclusion of your article, I derive my two reckonings from within historical situations. The reckonings are not based on the view of day in Scripture, but based on the view of time in the different Jewish cultures of the time. I feel your view is derived by a more textual reading, while mine is based on a more historical reading of the text. We are both honoring the text however, because it is focused on the text. Mind you we have both found what seem to be harmony between the Synoptics and John. One narrative, yet many correct readings, an outstanding feature of our sacred literature.--Tsommer (Tony) 16:41, 12 May 2012 (PDT)