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Talk:Dara

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Dara as Dardanus?

Everyone: I refer you all to Talk:Zerah and my much longer commentary on this and related points.

Here let it be said that "Zeus" is not "Jehud" or "Judah," and "Kronos" is certainly not "Israel". Moreover, I am ninety-nine-percent confident that the ancient Dardanites/Trojans probably had their own municipal cult, which they subsumed into the cult of Zeus when that cult spread to the Bosporus and the Dardanelles. (Not that their membership in that cult saved them from the sack-and-burn meted out to them by the Achaean League, but that's another story for another encyclopedia, perhaps Conservapedia.)

Furthermore, the Israelites were not seafarers and never gained a reputation as such. Nor do I elevate even Flavius Josephus to the same level as the Bible Itself.

Finally: Numbers 26:20 militates with extreme prejudice against the notion that the Zerahites, or indeed any branch of that clan, left Egypt ahead of the Exodus of Israel.--TemlakosTalk 00:47, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Response

"Here let it be said that "Zeus" is not "Jehud" or "Judah," and "Kronos" is certainly not "Israel"."

The version of Sanchuniathon quoted by Josephus does mention Judah instead of Zeus as a son of Kronos. The god Kronos could indeed be equated by the pagans with Israel. The Phoenicians were heavily influenced by the Israelites and often amalgamated Israelite traditions to their own pagan ones. From the quotation from Sanchuniathon one can see that Kronos-Saturn was identifiable (in their eyes) as Israel; other pagan sources tried to equate the God of Israel with Kronos. They also identified the Canaanite Phoenician god Baal with Saturn (Kronos) and Baal amongst the Israelites was sometimes confused with their own God.

"Furthermore, the Israelites were not seafarers and never gained a reputation as such."

The ancient Israelites certainly were seafarers. The Tribe of Dan as well as Asher and Zebulun were noted for it (See Judges 5:17 , Genesis 49:19 ).

"Nor do I elevate even Flavius Josephus to the same level as the Bible Itself."

Josephus is generally considered a reliable source.

"Numbers 26:20 militates with extreme prejudice against the notion that the Zerahites, or indeed any branch of that clan, left Egypt ahead of the Exodus of Israel."

I fail to see how Numbers 26:20 refutes the notion that any branch of the Zerahite clan left Egypt before the Exodus. All it indicates is that there were Zarhites present during the Exodus, and doesn't rule out the possibility that at least a portion of the clan left earlier. The testimonies of Hecataeus of Abdera and Diodorus Siculus seem to support this view:

“Hecataeus therefore, tells us that the Egyptians, formerly being troubled by calamities, in order that the divine wrath might be averted, expelled all the aliens gathered together in Egypt. Of these, some, under their leaders Danus and Cadmus, migrated into Greece; others into other regions, the greater part into Syria [meaning Palestine]. Their leader is said to have been Moses, a man renowned for wisdom and courage, founder and legislator of the state.” (Müller, Karl Otfried, “Fragmenta Historicorum Graecorum”, Vol. II, p. 385)
“Now the Egyptians say that also after these events a great number of colonies were spread from Egypt all over the inhabited world ... They say also that those who set forth with Danaus, likewise from Egypt, settled what is practically the oldest city in Greece, Argos, and that the nation of the Colchi in Pontus and that of the Jews, which lies between Arabia and Syria, were founded as colonies by certain emigrants from their country; and this is the reason why it is a long established institution among these people to circumcise their male children, the custom having been brought over from Egypt. Even the Athenians, they say, are colonists from Sais in Egypt.” (Diodorus of Sicily, G.H. Oldfather, 1933, vol. 1 bks. I-II, 1-34 pg. 91)

-- CelticCreationist 06:52, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Rebuttal

To CelticCreationist: I strongly suspect that you misunderstand half your sources. Sorry to be blunt, but that is my considered judgment, after reading your quotations of them and after looking up the referenced Bible verses, and James Ussher's interpretation in his Annals.

Regarding Sanchuniathon: I don't know what era he's from, and I'm sure that he's from an era more recent than that of the Judges. That's because the fall of Troy took place during the latter half of that era, i.e. after the career of Jephthah. But: how could the Phoenicians be still regarding the Israelites as something special, even as gods on earth, if a Phoenician king (Ithobaal III) had a daughter (Jezebel) who married an Israelite, if apostate, king (Ahab) and turned him toward Baalism and the erection of more high places througout the Kingdom of Israel?

It's not that the Israelites confused Baal with God. Rather, it's that they turned away from God and worshiped Baal instead. Why? Because Baalism gave them an excuse for lascivious behavior and even a means (child sacrifice) to do away with the consequences of such behavior.

Concerning Flavius Josephus, he often appears to contradict himself. So says Floyd Nolen Jones, who has studied Josephus far more than have either of us.

Concerning Danites, Asherites, and Zebulunites being seafarers: only one reference in the Son of Deborah says anything along that line about the Danites. As to the Asherites and Zebulunites, I see nothing at all saying that they are seafarers. The verse you mentioned in Genesis is about the tribe of Gad, not the tribe of Dan. That might have been a mix-up, but I read Jacob's prophetic description of the tribe of Dan, and I didn't see anything in there about their being seafarers.

Now concerning Hecataeus and Diodorus Siculus: Neither man, and I say again neither man, says that any Hebrews, Jews, or whatever you want to call them, left Egypt separate from the main body. Diodorus Siculus did say that Danaeus and Cadmus each left Egypt at about the time of the Exodus. Ussher quoted him as saying that. (In fact, Ussher also said that Phoenix, a contemporary of Cadmus, founded PHoenicia.) In this regard, all three of these men suggested that the Greek myths owe their origins to these ex-migrations from Egypt of certain persons named in the Greek stories, men who were not Greek at all, but Egyptian. But they say nothing about any Israelites splitting off from the main body.

Furthermore: How could Calcol or Dara afford to gather a following and leave Egypt before the Exodus? Were they not slaves by then? Had not Joseph died by the time those men were young adults?

Sadly, our understanding of Egyptian chronology is dreadfully incomplete. In secular hands, it is, quite simply, a rubber chronology. Even Floyd Nolen Jones admits that his identifications of the Pharaohs of the oppression and Exodus are only tentative. Tas Walker and his colleagues are trying to fill the gaps, but their work is only beginning. So while I have some idea of who the "new king who did not know Joseph" might be, I cannot say exactly when he came to the throne.

But at the same time, we have a responsibility to be true Biblicists. I can appreciate Josephus, or even the Deuterocanonical books, up to a point, and that is that I cannot elevate any source above the Bible.

You have said that the Bible nowhere explicitly says that the Zarhites did not split up. But even the sources you mentioned did not say that the Zarhites did split up. And James Ussher specifically said that Cecrops, Cadmus, Danaeus, et al. were Egyptians, not Hebrews.

Therefore I'll need a lot more convincing than you have so far managed, before I can reliably identify Dara as Dardanus of Troy, or Calcol as Cecrops I of Athens.--TemlakosTalk 18:31, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Response

To Temlakos: I've read and re-read these sources and they all very clearly indicate that the aliens that immigrated to Greece were a branch of the people led into Palestine by Moses.

The quote from Diodorus Siculus says:

The Egyptians expelled all the aliens gathered together in Egypt. The most distinguished of the expelled foreigners followed Danaus and Cadmus into Greece: but the greater number were led by Moses into Judea.

This itself says the greater number went into Judea implying the expelled foreigners led by Danaus and Cadmus were a branch of the group led by Moses. You make the mistake of assuming that I meant that all of the Zerahites made these migrations.

Regarding Baal: Yes, I realize that the turned away from God and worshiped Baal instead, but it appears that, at least some of them, confused Him with Baal. According to Zondervan's Pictorial Bible Dictionary (1976), "At first the name Ba'al was used by the Jews for their God without discrimination, but as the struggle between the two religions developed, the name Ba'al was given up in Judaism as a thing of shame, and even names like Jerubba'al were changed to Jerubbosheth: Hebrew bosheth means 'shame'."

Regarding Danites, et al: I meant to quote Genesis 49:13 regarding Zebulun. Judges 5:17 records the tribe of Dan had a maritime lifestyle circa 1200 BC. 1 Kings 9:26-27 and 10:22 record the Israelites had a large and far-sailing navy. The fleet of Jehoshaphat was very likely a well-made fleet of ships, but it was God who destroyed the ships as a punishment for Jehoshaphat's alliance with the wicked king of Israel (2 Chronicles 20:35-37). Also see this article, Did Ancient Hebrews Really "Fear the Sea"?.

In reference to, "How could Calcol or Dara afford to gather a following and leave Egypt before the Exodus? Were they not slaves by then? Had not Joseph died by the time those men were young adults?", I don't have an answer to this at this moment, but I will look into it and get back to you on it.

In any event, I fail to see how this information conflicts with the Bible or even is being 'elevated' about it. Many secular sources lend credence to the Bible and contain valuable information concerning Biblical events.

I'm not asking that this CreationWiki article declare that this information is 100% truth, rather I'm suggesting that it be part of the article and given a fair assessment, without being declared false when many writers who have studied the Biblical Table of Nations such as Herman Hoeh, Frederick Haberman, and E. Raymond Capt say that this information bears some truth. -- CelticCreationist 06:21, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Rebuttal

Don't forget, first of all, that a mixed multitude exited Egypt at about this time. Not all who left Egypt were Hebrew. Furthermore, Ussher suggests that his Danaeus was the father of the Danaeids, the women who killed their husbands (the sons of Aegyptus, whom Ussher identifies, wrongly as I think, with one of the Ramessides) and, according to the Greeks, were sentenced to draw water in leaky vessels for all eternity.

James Ussher treats the Danaeus and Cadmus stories himself. But he concludes that those two men were Egyptians, and that neither man was a son of Zerah.

Yes, I recall the sad story of the trading expedition that came to nothing. I cover that in the article on Jehoshaphat. That's several centuries ahead of the Danaaeus and Cadmus stories. In fact, ancient Troy was destroyed by the Achaean League during the era of the Judges.

Now then: I will permit you to discuss the commentaries that seek to identify Dara with Dardana, Calcol with Cecrops I (whom Ussher says was another Egyptian), and so on. I will have to come along and rebut those later on before I translate the whole lot of it into French. An encyclopedia should mention everything, within reason, even including some things that turn out to be mistaken. After all, though I consider the biblical chronology dispute to be settled to my satisfaction, scholarship demands that I mention the other positions in that dispute.

On another subject: at the moment I am struggling to build a list of the high priests of Israel. I am convinced that the list in the Jewish Encyclopedia, based as it is on Josephus and another Jewish source, is inaccurate, because it fails to mention certain key personages, among them Zechariah, son of Jehoiada, the one whom Joash had summarily executed. I also believe that Jehosheba represents only one of at least three connections between the House of David and the house, as it were, of Aaron. That's a discussion I would like to continue on the page [[Talk::High priest]], if you have any insights.--TemlakosTalk 13:29, 15 February 2009 (UTC)